But, if, during an online conversation about Calvinism, someone writes that the discussion is disturbing to him/her, certain questions arise beyond the obvious point that its wrong to attack that person: Should the conversation be halted? 3680 / C (Canadian Dollars) Wilfred Laurier University (Waterloo Lutheran Seminary) Lutheran. A Adam Clarke Adam Harwood Adrian Rogers A W Tozer B Balthasar Hubmaier Ben Witherington III Brian Abasciano C Charles Finney Charles Swindoll Chuck Smith Clark Pinnock C S Lewis Craig Evans Craig Keener D Daniel Steele Daniel Whedon Daniel Whitby Dave Hunt David Allen David Arthur DeSilva David Bentley Hart David Pawson Dwight L Moody E F Wow. I have the utmost respect for my long-time regular reader and pastor who happens to be Calvinist, Craig Vick, who posted the following comment on my blog article where I was struggling with the doctrinal/abuse confusion: For what its worth, from now on Ill make sure I think of your story and the stories of others before I express my theology. @ Muff Potter: I know this all too well, Im afraid, but it goes for *anything* even art, music, theater, etc. I never met Calvin myself, and as my History of Science supervisor at uni said nobody has ever devised a means to psychoanalyse the dead, so I can only guess at what went on in Calvins head. Lin wrote: This is why I dont like to appeal to the belief systems of RCC, reformers, or Charlemagne. Im sure there are believers in every venue. He should be a great example to you. Earthquakes, tsunamis, category five tornadoes, decrepitude and death are all beyond our pay-grades to decide upon, much less get resolution from. for what its worth, im the product of many generations of energetic, committed Christian people, several career missionaries to asia, and church since day 1. Dee, thank you so much for asking for prayers for my son-in-law! But that doesnt mean that the beliefs are necessarily untrue. And if you reject the doctrine as it has been historically understood (like the guy at my church), then at least you are wrestling with a time tested theology, not a new fad, and wrestling with time tested theology can only help you grow as a Christian. But there are reasons not to make it an issue. John Hagee. There is too much work to be done. The bullying was behind the scenes. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot, @ Headless Unicorn Guy:YOu should see my Christmas tree. Man is completely helpless in his sinful state, is under the . I used try but I have given up. @ JeffB: I think that this is the reason why, in some cases (not including anyone in the present discussion), that a robust discussion is not possible. Those wishes are not uncommon. I guess a lot of folks dont really know that its possible to be non-Calvinist but emphatically not Arminian. I might also note that TWC is not the same as Calvinism. System- & neat-little-box-free. If the answer sometimes doesnt work then weve got more work to do Considering the amount of people we are seeing who have had these experiences, I wish the accusations about misrepresenting the Reformed/Calvin/Tulip systems would take a back seat. How can a bridge be built when the side you are attempting to reach constantly moves its shoreline back and forth in an effort to maintain its monolithic sovereignty as THE only standard of true Christian thought? In this final submission on this series, I interact with the [] I am much more hyper in my comments than they are. Please continue to dialog. I disagree. It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. This may sound like its contradictory, but I dont think it is. Mhler taught at Tbingen and Munich. Though its not nearly as esoteric and egghead as supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. I dont think this one is part of. If we do, we must hang our heads in shame. A lot of people (hostile atheists especially) like to frame the whole ordeal as in, How mean or wrong it was of God to make that forbidden fruit tree when he knew Adam and Eve would eat from it, but the guy pointed out thats the not the way to look at it. I always try to be sensitive, and Ive communicated before that I agree that theology should take a backseat. Packer James Montgomery Boice James White John F. MacArthur John Piper Joshua Harris Loraine Boettner Albert Mohler R.C. They cant seem to express their experience and pain without having a conversation with some authentic Calvinist/Reformer/Tulip believer (Whatever that means. Unfortunately, to some, that means I may not even be a Christian. God has chosen THEM as the sole recipients of His TRUTH. Yes, they too wrote thousands of pages, but at least they werent lawyers! Every puzzle piece in its perfect place, no room for any doubt It sounds to me like a generation of bloggers has mainstreamed hyper-Calvinism. But maybe there is just too much pain and hurt for that to be possible. But it's hard to beat J. I. Packer in any theological camp. (LogOut/ Again, living in a 3 dimensional world, that makes little sense. But never, ever did it raise anything except a good discussion. Its like taking someone whos been caged and respecting that they might not feel comfortable in small rooms, or inside buildings at all. This is merely a nice way of saying that God hasnt enlightened you to the truth. In other words, there are plenty of people who are not part of this movement. Pray for him. He is to me, and that in spite of my categorical rejection of most of what he believes. whose beliefs have little to do with either Calvin or Arminius. Kentucky. The list 21st-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians includes Gary North (Christian Reconstructionist), Stephen Tong, D. A. Carson, John F. MacArthur and R. C. Sproul. God ordains everything and man has a degree of free will how can these both be true? He didnt say to have faith in the Reformation, or Tulip, or Keller, or your pastor/elder, husband, or Mary. As I think youre hinting here, a certain amount of theology (what proportion, I dont know) is in reality nothing more than a minority social science. When I look at myself, I think of my own salvation from a TULIP perspective. And this is the crux of the problem. There is a reason there has been a debate for centuries. The Calvinistas have just put a new spin on how to usurp Gods authority (the Holy Spirit) over the individual believer. Nicholas what a great link. Everything. He got into this thing about to truly let someone have free will, not only do you have to permit them to disobey / do evil, but there has to be an opportunity to do good, too. I became a Christian at the age of 17, having been raised in Salem, Massachusetts, in what was essentially a non Christian home. She called me and we had a good talk. 21st-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians - FamousFix.com list We have a question for you? They probably have read other books about Calvin doctrines, but never the original. And really, in the end, if a doctrine about the majesty and greatness of God doesnt comfort traumatized people (among all the needy humans out there), then of what real use is it? You can even put your feet up I dont mind! Now I dont see either of those reflected in what I know of historic Calvinism (and both are directly addressed in the WCF), but if some people want to say they believe those things, then those people are in error for believing them because they are unbiblical, not because they are unCalvinistic. Could we continue this discussion under the more recent Calvinist post, For Calvinists? Calvinism may be cool right now, but it doesnt reflect the God I have known and loved for over 40 years. My bet would be that some (many?) This is as it should be, imo. The fervor of this movement reminds me of the early, heady days of the Jesus movement. Our sinful human nature craves it. Since so many Calvinists believe everything in this life is decreed, it would mean that God decreed you to write/create this blog from before the foundations of the world, so how can they object to you doing so? And further, since Calvinism declares that God elects never based on any acts or will of man, of what use is it even to distinguish between good and evil, even if man could know them? This being the case, there is no rations basis for saying that YOU as a person can agree to the first and disagree on the second. Im not doubting what you say, but PLEASE (and this goes for everyone) try to document this type of thing. Even if they do end up with Pythonesque theology that embarrasses more thoughtful calvin sympathisers. Calvinism stopped making sense to me when I was grieving the loss of my son last year. His attitude impresses me. which is really funny because in my experience, the Lutheran church never ever mentions either of those things. What you believe is irrelevant. Online, of course, its much harder to gauge actually, impossible, since you have no idea who is reading what youre writing. Until about 6 years ago, I never, once, had any conflict with those who are Reformed. And honestly, whether they admit it or not, it appears to me most of the good Calvinist I know operate that way anyway. He exercises his power and sovereignty over all created things. This is what some people have heard their entire life. Instead we have to accept that we don't understand their paradigm and choose to believe that they love God and believe that they are faithfully serving Him. Who did he think he was? which many people hold as dear as religion and political beliefs. He doesnt get rude or nasty about Calvinists in his video, he just disagrees with their views and says why, and explains what he does believe. I also want to learn to be a bit more like Olson, showing kindness in the midst of disagreement. That is what Jesus spoke against over and over in his short life.. Everything you are saying here is consistent with a Reformed view of human responsibility. And heres 2400+ pages of PROOF! And would appeal to organization freaks with OCD who crave To Be Absolutely Right? I am loving this discussion!!!!!! I dont have an answer, but I dont like the other alternatives either (that God doesnt exist, is not all powerful, or is evil). So this is a goal for myself, as my family is growing up and I am finding a bit more time. 2. German-American theologian and philosopher Paul Tillich is remembered for his work in the field of Christian existentialism and for concepts such as the method of correlation. Your voice is missing! I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. And that I need to keep praying that God will teach me to love them the way he wants me to. But Jesus and he should know praised his Father for hiding these things from the wise and learned, revealing them instead to little weans. There are definitely some clearly Calvinist ideas that I disagree with. Jeff S (and B for that matter), you sound like a good and kind man and a thoughtful speaker. @ Jeff S: There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. No one at my church answers to RC Sproul or John Piper, even though their materials are used sometimes. I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. b) I want to distance myself and the Calvinists I know from the abusive people who mis-represent the theology. John DeBrine and Youthtime wad usually held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. Groovy, man. I too have read Olson s book as well and appreciate his gentle spirit. That is why we are doing our darndest to look at these issues and try to find a bridge. . @ dee: Hey, my Lutheran background is a lot of things, but Calvinist it aint! Maybe I dont get out enough, but I cant remember the last time I heard or read a Calvinist leader saying these kinds of things, unless they were referring to someone like Brian McLaren. But you are right. Yes, I believe that what were on earth mainly to do is bring glory to God, and our salvation and love for others is a part of that. But I doand I understand where Jeff S is coming from here. © 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - The Wartburg Watch. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. However, when a woman has been abused for years by the men in her life, its going to be natural that she lashes out at men and not feel safe around them. I can know that such a rule/principle is wrong because Jesus said the two central commands are to love God above all and neighbor as self, and then he called the rest of the Bible, all the laws and principles to be an addendum to those central two laws. Rank No. I mentioned the concept as one that was coming from a non-Calvinist contingent (but is also the view of Sproul). Is some parts of the word more important than other parts? By wrong, do you mean untrue? And as someone suggested, what is sometimes passed off as Calvinism is actually so-called hyper-Calvinism and my theological dictionary suggests its hard sometimes to tell the difference in some hyper-Calvinist writers. . I didnt say we should be satisfied with the milk of the word. List of non-calvinist denominations? : r/Christianity - reddit As far as the WCF- sure it isnt exactly what Calvin taught. Does not a little yeast leaven the whole batch? I am not saying that you or anyone else *shouldnt* feel that way that would be absurd. Accept that they believe in a God of love even if you do not know how they get there. So, in that manner, I have some suggestion on how to view Calvinists as a non-Calvinist. Good to be reminded we are not at war with fellow believers and its never wrong to be kind. What Is Calvinism Theology? (5 Points of Calvinism Explained) What scientists call the laws of nature we call normal operations of the sovereign God. Behaviorallyyes, I would concede that Jeff S and Jeff B are NOT hyper. Thinks youre the bees knees. @ Arce: But what I am hoping is that you, as well as me, can instead understand the objections so well that you can begin to understand why a few quotes from Calvin, along with a few Bible verses, do not answer the deeper questions. I could not. Of course you are. Loving hurting people in real ways (listening/caring/supporting) can help SAVE lives, emotionally, spiritually, and even physically. I dont know how else God can allow his creation to be truly free, if he steps in each and every time somebody decides to hurt somebody else, or if He removes all evil from society all the time. It was like the only choices I had were to swear allegiance to Calvin or give up my beliefs that align with what he taught about grace. Heal their parents broken hearts and lives? Even though I have now separated myself from that belief system, connecting with those words brought me right back to those intense feelings of God was right there watching me get abused and didnt do a darn thing about it. So I posted my abuse story/Calvin connection and have tried to keep that thread safe. The Calvinism debate thread is a great place to really get into the nitty gritty of those tough issues. As well as giving off a strong aroma of the No True Scotsman fallacy. As leader of the Anti-Revolutionary Party in the Netherlands he served as Prime Minister of his country from 1901 to 1905. . If you read it, you will most likely have a heart attack. This is also (imo) true for many, many people. Both had a very strong influence on the Nouvelle Thologie of the 20th century. 1. @ Hester: Not in the sense that Calvinists view PSA, I think. Be prepared though, reading The Institutes is a difficult undertaking. List of famous Calvinist theologians : r/Reformed - reddit God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.. Thanks for the kind words; I can only hope that they are at least partially true. list of non calvinist theologians Glad to have someone who gets my background! Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Energy is really transferred from one thing to another. Roger E. Olson(born 1952) is Professor of Theology,George W. Truett Theological Seminary,Baylor University,Waco, Texas, USA.[1][2]. We may diverge a bit here. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! Some of his hearers might have been scared as, uh, heck. The non Christian world will know there is a God by our love for other Christians. So, for example, we just did this study of the WCF with a a group at my church. In SGM, most of us were pretty demure. It caused her great pain to contemplate the Calvinist belief that God had ordained for her to be abused in such a manner. For my part, I honestly dont understand a need to defend Calvinism, or Luther, or the RCC, or Baptists, etc., etc. There wasnt so much in your face going on. And if the term is ambiguous, then I its wise to be careful and specific in criticism. But I do think it is very important to not shut people down if they dont tow the party line. Thats what I think the intention of this blog post was. We can just debate doctrine. I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. If you had simply read the Bible, you would know that you are filled with the lies of the devil! I dont want to speak out of turn here, but I wonder if the word calvinist should be banned, like the word bitter, due to the frequency with which it is taken out of context and/or the extent to which it means different things to different people. The Greatest 20th Century Theologians 1) That article. These are things that we can work on together, no matter our view on election. I pointed out in the comments that the church at large didnt even HAVE a concept of PSA for the first 1,000 years, and it wasnt really popularized until the Reformers. He discusses the rogue molecule that people bring up here a lot and says that if a single molecule where outside of Gods power, then it could thwart his will.